But when, I take it, the men and the women have passed the age of lawful procreation, we shall leave the men free to form such relations with whomsoever they please, except daughter and mother and their direct descendants and ascendants, and likewise the women, save with son and father and so on, first admonishing them preferably not even to bring to light anything whatever thus conceived, but if they are unable to prevent a birth to dispose of it on the understanding that we cannot rear such an offspring.
- Plato Republic Book V 461
I sometimes don’t know what to think of Plato’s works. They’re chewy things, really, when you get down to it. Dialogues.
Is he putting words down that he believes?
Or using them as a teaching tool in his classes? And we, poor souls that we are, have inherited the mere tools of the genius, that we take far, far too literally?
Take today’s quote, for instance. Smack dab in the middle of his most famous work, he describes the most unnatural set up imaginable for how to constitute a guardian class of a Polity. Get them together. Teach them the Classic Homers, but not all of it, edit out that stuff about Achilles weeping and all that unmanly stuff. Get a breeding program where no one knows father or mother. Have sex with whomever you want. Abort the child if it’s with your mom or father. Raise the children to be loyal not to family, but only to the state. Sound familiar?
I mean….
REALLY!?
We’re expected to believe this garbage (if it’s serious and not a teaching technique) is from the second smartest pagan in history, the guy who taught Aristotle? Whatever guys.
I’m out.
All of which is a long prelude to the meat of today’s topic - the children of a Polity.
In response to The Two Step Dance Religion and Ethnicity Play in a Polity, readers
and both mentioned their experiences that they had when looking at various Polities. They both, as I would, recommended visiting the Polities that you might settle down in. From Whiskey6’s comments:“1) Ask the awkward questions of multiple different people. We assumed too much and our guide was a liar. Had we asked a simple question to two different people, we would have known what we were getting into.
2) When people tell you something, take their actual words at face value. Don't assume they mean X. Listen to the actual words- they were spoken for a reason.”
1 - To the first, I cannot gainsay whether his guide was a liar or not. I will certainly take his word for it. Sadly, there are far too many of those.
However, I will note that, in my own Polity, there are one or two families that simply are good hosts. They have those virtues and habits associated with that, and are more joyful and optimistic. They will tell you all the good reasons to move here.
I am not those things. I will tell you all the reasons you should not move here first. Then I will tell you all the wonderful blessings that are in store if you can over come them. Because, let’s face it - if you don’t think you can handle it, I don’t want you here. So, I encourage you to ask around.
2 - Yes. Absolutely, yes.
There are people that have tried to talk to outsiders, and been burned for it when outsiders told others in the community what was said. Or spread it outside the community. So, we speak carefully, and try to be accurate. Our pains are our own. Not yours. Our drama is ours, not yours. We’ll give you… a taste of it, to let you know what you might be getting into, so that we’re honest enough to see if you belong. But, we’re not going to write you an essay.
Take that for what you will.
And here’s my own advice, after I pondered it.
Ask hard questions about children, teens, and elderly.
If a community can’t deal with those groups - you’re stepping into trouble.
I’ve seen traditional Latin mass communities that became swamped with elderly. Literally, it seems like, for some reason, those particularly communities had many elderly move there with no family support and they’ll depend on the Religious and non-family members to take care of them. I’m not how it will work out, last I checked in.
Then, in fledgling communities, the youth are the bellwether for many ills in the community.
If the Community Traditions aren’t all ages
This was something I saw in my own Polity, that went away, and came back. It made a huge difference, and I would say changed it from a community to a Polity when families were involved in all functions again. When only the youth are involved in most gatherings, life just became… disconnected. Families became disconnected. The point of things became to entertain them, rather than to gather together and celebrate things.
If there’s a dearth of jobs?
There will be unemployed youth, OR youth will be working a job that a man should be doing, because the money isn’t there to hire a family man.
If there isn’t support for young mothers?
You’ll see and hear a lot more complaints about child behavior in public places, complaints of worn out moms, etc. A good Polity will usually have a good system in place for meal trains, free babysitting for those too poor to afford (trade in kind of some sort), co-op schooling to supplement homeschooling, etc
If there are a lot of single women (teens and twenties)?
There’s probably an issue with courtship rules/standards. Some Traditional communities have influential people (priests or laity) that keep things crazy. Men will usually resort to going to other traditional communities, either physically or online, and bringing outside blood in. Ladies under those households don’t have that option. Boys will always do what’s needed to get the girls, and often can do it even while staying moral and virtuous - but it’s a shame they have to break “community standards” to do it. It will get sorted out in time, but just see it for what it is.
If there isn’t a… dream, or vision of future for the Polis.
Youth will move away. They’ll join the military. They won’t marry within the Polis. Video games will be more prevalent. As will teens being the standard American teen - roaming at night, looking for fun or getting into trouble. Teens with a vision work, stay busy, and sleep - at least in a Rural setting from what I’ve seen. When they didn’t, or those that didn’t buy in, they got into trouble.
Elderly care -
A good Polity should have people checking in on those without family regularly. Rural ones should have a cemetery, or plans to make one specifically for US and not THEM if possible. It cuts costs EXTREMELY (I’m on the board, and we think we’ll get people in the ground and 20 yr grounds care for ~1700). See if they’re being treated with respect by the teens and children. Proper sirs and mams. Parents teaching them to get out of the way, hold doors, all that.
Basically, look at the details. Ask about the things that can’t be seen.
Is all of human life being treated with the beauty and dignity it deserves in the Polity?
Yes, some can and will change over time. No place is perfect, and may not have the resources at a specific point in time - my own was lacking in the vision for teens when I moved here. But, I had a plan on how to provide a career and pathway for my family and children.
But, as the title says, are the children alright, where you’re visiting? Do they regularly grow up, and stay living there when they could move away when old enough to chose to? If so, that Polity is a success, and growing.
If you have a pathway for your own family, you may be able to over come particular faults of the Polity, and demonstrate it to others, pulling the Polity upwards. That’s what Good, Virtuous People do; work towards the common good.
But, be honest in your assessment. Can you work with the material a particular Polity has? If so, great! If not, move on down the road.
There are other Polities out there.
Make one your own.
And is not this true of the good likewise - that the man who is unable to define in his discourse and distinguish and abstract from all other things the aspect or idea of the good, and who cannot, as it were in battle, running the gauntlet of all tests, and striving to examine everything by essential reality and not by opinion, hold on his way through all this without tripping in his reasoning - the man who lack this power, you will say, does not really know the good itself or any particular good, but if he apprehends any adumbration of it, he contact of it is by opinion, not by knowledge, and dreaming and dozing through his present life, before he awakens here he will arrive at the house of Hades and fall asleep forever?
- Plato Republic Book VII 534
Great post! The issue I’ve seen repeatedly in the past is that a lot of kids move away from the community when they graduate high school, and only half return. This seems to mainly because there is no college or at least no good college nearby, and the rural job market is lacking.
Near as I can tell, I can only think of two solutions, either everyone needs to have at least 4 kids to keep the congregation going even as many leave or we need to boost the local job market. My wife and I are working on a long term business plan that could employ some of the church youth, but I have to be careful that no one thinks to sue us for religious discrimination.